Jaime Moyer

[sigpro]

Jaime Moyer went for his 250th victory tonight and lost, but I was wanting to ask everyone something...
If let's say Moyer goes two or three more years and gets to 285 wins or so, does he deserve in the hall of fame, get in the hall of fame or none of the above? He hasn't been dominant but hes been around along time and he's won a world series, won 20 games twice or three times I believe, at least once that I can remember, what do you all think? I say he doesn't get it but deserves to be at 285 wins.

 

[bobflipaburger]

I don't think he's a HOFer... No disrespect to him, but I just don't think he'll get voted in... If he does though He'd go in as an M.

 

[hawkfanadam]

It would be nice to see, but I doubt it. I have a ton of respect for Moyer. I wish he could pitch forever. No doubt he will go in as an M, though.

 

[Hawk096]

If Mussina doesn't get in I don't think Moyer does. Mussina has more wins than Moyer. Moyer has played longer than Mussina too and up until his days in Seattle weren't anything special. Mussina was always a consister pitcher just never reached 20 wins until his final season in the MLB.

 

[sigpro]

Unfortunatly, you guys are right, and by the way Mussina deserves to be in. I think for pitching in the steroid era and get 285 wins you deserve to be in the hall of fame. Moyer is one of my all time favorite Mariners, for his nice personality and his charity work and his devotion to his family, he really is a class act. I saw a game with him while he was on the Mariners and he gave up something like 14 runs in 3 innings or something crazy like that, I don't remember the actual numbers but it was close to that. He didn't throw his glove or get upset or leave the bench, he was calm and watched the rest of the game that way, I always thought that's a great leader and that's a great thing to show the rest of his teammates how to be a man and keep your emotions in check.

 

[Seattlehawk94]

Moyer has a shot at 300 he throws soft takes care of himself and has a 2 year deal..If he wins 15 this year and next he's really close..Ryan threw harder and lasted a long time, I don't see how he won't get to 300 if he wants to..

Tommy John and Blyleven deserve to be in as well..They were close to 300 and much better than 300 guys like Sutton and Niekro, sometimes numbers are stupid..Dave Stewart is an HoFer but his numbers aren't "great" enough, and goes for Hershiser...

 

[sigpro]

Moyer has a shot at 300 he throws soft takes care of himself and has a 2 year deal..If he wins 15 this year and next he's really close..Ryan threw harder and lasted a long time, I don't see how he won't get to 300 if he wants to..

Tommy John and Blyleven deserve to be in as well..They were close to 300 and much better than 300 guys like Sutton and Niekro, sometimes numbers are stupid..Dave Stewart is an HoFer but his numbers aren't "great" enough, and goes for Hershiser...

I couldn't agree with you more. Bert Blyleven has actually been kinda whining lately about not getting in, but I don't blame him, he deserves in. Like you say with the style Moyer uses he could go forever just about.

 

[Hawk096]

Now here is something to debate... Baseball Tonight was talking about Pettite and saying how if he were to pitch 4 more years and win at least 14 years in each of this year he could surpass 300. Given his HGH involvement with the Mitchell Report does he go in? My true belief and I still stick by this... One strike and your out for good. I would do it for A-Rod or anyone and I'm a Yankee fan. If I had to vote for Andy it would be very hard to do so... How do you guys all feel?

 

[bobflipaburger]

Petite is not a HOFer especially with the HGH usage... Stop being a homer

 

[Hawk096]

Not being a homer Bob lol. I think once you fail a test you shouldn't be allowed in... same with A-Rod.

 

[bobflipaburger]

I don't know about that... I mean there's being cheating in baseball as long as there's been baseball.. I mean there used to be only one umpir and guys would run straight from 2nd to home on a base hit... Should we discount every run scored in that era? Corked bats, spit balls, etc. It's really a tough call.

 

[Hawk096]

Corked bats, spit balls and skipping bases are all something that I don't condome, but I don't think that is something as bad as steroids. All of those things listed before involved players actually thinking in a way. Who would think that by spitting on the ball it would move it better? I read in a book once about spitting on the ball "It doesn't make you throw the ball with much movement. Those guys had talent and knew how to use it. Yes it made their game better, but they could have just done it without the spit or substances. That's what made them so dominant." Out of Randy Kaiser's autobiograpy wrote in 2003.

 

[Hawk096]

Another thing to add... with steroids you are improving your body and all of those other things you listed Bob don't affect your body.

 

[sigpro]

Players when baseball first started out didn't have gyms and creatine and protein bars and all of that other substances used today that are "legal" things that make your body bigger, stronger, and faster so should all of say after 1920 be all stricken from the record books? Of course not. Untill baseball decides that steroid use declines you from the hall of fame then players with the numbers should be in the hall of fame. There have been players that were horrible human beings and made mistakes and are still in the hall of fame, I don't think the hall of fame should be who's a good guy and a bad guy it should be who has the best numbers and who were the best players. Maybe we should throw Ty Cobb out of the hall of fame because he was a racist, this is rediculous. If Pettitte has the numbers he deserves in just like Mark Maguire and all of those guys. On a side note, steroids and protein and all of that crap never made it easier to make contact with a baseball. At the time people were taking steroids there were no sanctions on it in baseball as well. If jose Canseco would of never came out with his stupid book none of this would up for discussion and Sammy Sosa and Mark Maguire would of went in to the hall of fame on the first ballet. Baseball loved the steroids, it was making them a ton of money, they were only concerned after everyone else knew about it and they could of gotten in trouble or lose money.

 

[bobflipaburger]

Players when baseball first started out didn't have gyms and creatine and protein bars and all of that other substances used today that are "legal" things that make your body bigger, stronger, and faster so should all of say after 1920 be all stricken from the record books? Of course not. Untill baseball decides that steroid use declines you from the hall of fame then players with the numbers should be in the hall of fame. There have been players that were horrible human beings and made mistakes and are still in the hall of fame, I don't think the hall of fame should be who's a good guy and a bad guy it should be who has the best numbers and who were the best players. Maybe we should throw Ty Cobb out of the hall of fame because he was a racist, this is rediculous. If Pettitte has the numbers he deserves in just like Mark Maguire and all of those guys. On a side note, steroids and protein and all of that crap never made it easier to make contact with a baseball. At the time people were taking steroids there were no sanctions on it in baseball as well. If jose Canseco would of never came out with his stupid book none of this would up for discussion and Sammy Sosa and Mark Maguire would of went in to the hall of fame on the first ballet. Baseball loved the steroids, it was making them a ton of money, they were only concerned after everyone else knew about it and they could of gotten in trouble or lose money.

Agreed... Except Sosa isn't eligible for the HOF yet. And you can make the point those drugs make it easier to hit the ball because they improve your eye sight... Well HGH does, I'm not sure if steroids do or not.

 

[Hawk096]

In my book it's cheating. I think its a tough situation to defend it and oppose it. I know everyone called the Patroits cheaters. What made them cheaters? That's just smart head coaching and I hate the Patroits, but in all reality once a cheater always a cheater.

However when you have other players who are against players that take steroids I think that says something. You can't compare Sosa to a guy in the 20's cause who knows how that guy would have done had he taken PED's or anything.

Truth is it's cheating whether or not people think so. If it wasn't people would come out about it and say "Yeah I took them". They know what they did is wrong and for that they will have to live with the steroid cloud until they take care of it like the NFL did.

 

[bobflipaburger]

No one's saying it's not cheating... It's definitely not fair to non-users. But you can't keep them out of the HOF for cheating... There are plenty of cheaters in the HOF.

 

[Hawk096]

If Pete Rose isn't in why should a steroid user be in? Let Rose in and I'll let McGwire in.

 

[bobflipaburger]

Rose was banned from baseball. Steroid users only get suspended, obviously baseball has more of a problem with what rose did.

 

[sigpro]

we are in total agreement on this on Bob. If the MLB says people who tested positive or admitted to banned substances are banned then fine, but as of now steroids shouldn't keep you from the hall of fame. also, I think rose should be in, even those rose and steroids users are scum bags in my opinion, they deserve in.